Posts by King Solomon

54

If you are reading this title, everything you know needs to be questioned

by King Solomon in

the title of this thread is like one of those bumper stickers, "if you can read this, you are too close".

it's true: if you are reading this, you accepted certain assumptions in the past, or need to do so.. the jws deliver a well-honed message that is targeted to individuals who's prior experiences and psyche makes them pre-disposed to accept their version of reality; attending meetings is really just a way for individuals to correct their thinking so as to be more in accord with the beliefs of the group.

btw, the process of aligning one's thinking to a group is not inherent evil, eg doctors attend continuing education courses so they can stay abreast with their colleagues in new findings of research, thus enabling them to deliver the best possible care to their patients, not practicing using turn-of-the-century ideas (blood-sucking leeches, etc).. however, when it comes to religion and faith, accepting assumptions into one's world view without critically-analysis leads one to a conclusion that may be flawed.

King Solomon

SBF said:

Doubt everything, including this.

Yeah, good advice.

Of course, that's a conclusion, and not the actual experiences that allowed you to come to that conclusion.

So rephrasing that idea, we can probably assume that a healthy dose of skepticism WAS lacking in those who are now reading this thread, for if they HAD exercised a bit of due diligence and caution before joining a cult, they would have researched (TTATT, The Truth About The Truth) and wouldn't be here on JWN, AFTER the fact. :)

(Who knows: maybe some reading ARE currently researching after they were encountered by a JW, but before they got deeply involved? If so, good for them!)

54

If you are reading this title, everything you know needs to be questioned

by King Solomon in

the title of this thread is like one of those bumper stickers, "if you can read this, you are too close".

it's true: if you are reading this, you accepted certain assumptions in the past, or need to do so.. the jws deliver a well-honed message that is targeted to individuals who's prior experiences and psyche makes them pre-disposed to accept their version of reality; attending meetings is really just a way for individuals to correct their thinking so as to be more in accord with the beliefs of the group.

btw, the process of aligning one's thinking to a group is not inherent evil, eg doctors attend continuing education courses so they can stay abreast with their colleagues in new findings of research, thus enabling them to deliver the best possible care to their patients, not practicing using turn-of-the-century ideas (blood-sucking leeches, etc).. however, when it comes to religion and faith, accepting assumptions into one's world view without critically-analysis leads one to a conclusion that may be flawed.

King Solomon

Cyberjesus said:

you said:

It's true: if you are reading this, you accepted certain assumptions in the past, or NEED to do so.

its funny that a couple of paragraphs later you "assumed" this:

Yeah, I spotted my mistake (which ironicially occurred when I went back to clean up some other grammatical errors after I posted the thread), but it was after the 30 min timeout, so no fixing it, at that point.

Obviously it should read something like this:

It's true: if you are reading this, you held and/or accepted certain invalid assumptions in the past, and need to re-evaluate everything you THINK you know, or else risk repeating the

same mistake!

Fact is, I didn't know if it was too ambitious when I wrote it, as there are many moving parts. Thanks to Oracle for being the brave "guinea pig" (as it were) to help get it rolling, and flesh it out; I had a rough idea of where it should go, but obviously other participants shape where it ends up going.

Speaking of which, 4 other posters clearly were able to overlook the mistake and comprehend the point I was trying to communicate, at least enough to constructively engage in the point of the thread (ie in JW parlance, they weren't "stumbled" by the mistake).

So what about you, cyberjesus?

With that clarification, do you have anything to share as YOUR example of pre-existing fallacious mental tendencies you have have held, that may explain why you were once in a cult? Or are you just gleaning JWN to look for nit-picking opportunities? :)

54

If you are reading this title, everything you know needs to be questioned

by King Solomon in

the title of this thread is like one of those bumper stickers, "if you can read this, you are too close".

it's true: if you are reading this, you accepted certain assumptions in the past, or need to do so.. the jws deliver a well-honed message that is targeted to individuals who's prior experiences and psyche makes them pre-disposed to accept their version of reality; attending meetings is really just a way for individuals to correct their thinking so as to be more in accord with the beliefs of the group.

btw, the process of aligning one's thinking to a group is not inherent evil, eg doctors attend continuing education courses so they can stay abreast with their colleagues in new findings of research, thus enabling them to deliver the best possible care to their patients, not practicing using turn-of-the-century ideas (blood-sucking leeches, etc).. however, when it comes to religion and faith, accepting assumptions into one's world view without critically-analysis leads one to a conclusion that may be flawed.

King Solomon

144,001 said:

"The bible is the word of god . . ."

That's a biggie, maybe too big (like "the WT is a lie" example I gave)?

But yeah, if you accept that it IS the word of God (and that there IS a God, etc), then you're going to be prone to any Bible-based religion; so YES, you do need to question it, just like all the others.... The Bible may NOT be the word of God, but men....

54

If you are reading this title, everything you know needs to be questioned

by King Solomon in

the title of this thread is like one of those bumper stickers, "if you can read this, you are too close".

it's true: if you are reading this, you accepted certain assumptions in the past, or need to do so.. the jws deliver a well-honed message that is targeted to individuals who's prior experiences and psyche makes them pre-disposed to accept their version of reality; attending meetings is really just a way for individuals to correct their thinking so as to be more in accord with the beliefs of the group.

btw, the process of aligning one's thinking to a group is not inherent evil, eg doctors attend continuing education courses so they can stay abreast with their colleagues in new findings of research, thus enabling them to deliver the best possible care to their patients, not practicing using turn-of-the-century ideas (blood-sucking leeches, etc).. however, when it comes to religion and faith, accepting assumptions into one's world view without critically-analysis leads one to a conclusion that may be flawed.

King Solomon

Sheep2slaughter said:

If your wife is sick or in some way in need of your kindly consideration and it happens to be a Saturday morning you should NOT leave her at home while you make sure "the brothers" see you in service. Take care if your wife bro. God expects us to afford people dignity, honor, respect and love. Not to kick them to the curb cuz it's CO visit, special campaign, Saturday, meeting night, family worship evening etc....

After further reflection I think I kinda missed the intent of this thread.....but oh well.....people shouldn't be douchy just to look good to the other people in the congregation. Just be cool.

No, it works.

It's a tendency to cave in to social pressures, to place one's dedication to the religion ahead of the welfare of family members. Did you have that trait BEFORE your first contact with JWs? If so, it's important to identify the weakness, because if you don't identify it you may simply fall for the same pressures in the future, and repeat the same mistakes.

54

If you are reading this title, everything you know needs to be questioned

by King Solomon in

the title of this thread is like one of those bumper stickers, "if you can read this, you are too close".

it's true: if you are reading this, you accepted certain assumptions in the past, or need to do so.. the jws deliver a well-honed message that is targeted to individuals who's prior experiences and psyche makes them pre-disposed to accept their version of reality; attending meetings is really just a way for individuals to correct their thinking so as to be more in accord with the beliefs of the group.

btw, the process of aligning one's thinking to a group is not inherent evil, eg doctors attend continuing education courses so they can stay abreast with their colleagues in new findings of research, thus enabling them to deliver the best possible care to their patients, not practicing using turn-of-the-century ideas (blood-sucking leeches, etc).. however, when it comes to religion and faith, accepting assumptions into one's world view without critically-analysis leads one to a conclusion that may be flawed.

King Solomon

Sseveninches said:

For me personally, it's based off The Oracle's comment, just as I said:

I once believed that questioning the WT doctrine was out of the question, since they've already done all the research and have gotten everything figured out.

Yup, that's a GREAT example, a CLASSIC appeal to authority, i.e. the JWs claim to be the Bible experts, so you can trust them to provide accurate information.

And the application to the thread is identifying if that tendency to trust authority figures existed BEFORE your first-contact with JWs?

A variant here is that some people might have a tendency to trust "counter-authority" authority figures. Jesus' message tends to appeal to society's underdogs, those who tend to rail against "the man", "the little guy", or "the authorities" in power. Jesus' message definitely was radical, counter-revolutionary, a threat to the existing political and religious systems of his day. CLASSIC trait found in cult members, in fact.

69

I left the Witnesses over 10 years ago, but finally went back

by JakeMarley in

jw
friends

the entire time i was gone it was nagging at me.

i hadn't been previously baptized, so leaving wasn't that big a deal.

now i'm back in the swing of it, going to all meetings and field service.

King Solomon

Damn neighborhood punks, always ringing my door-bell to play ding-dong-ditch.....

36

Rescuing a God who is blind to Evil

by Terry in

have you ever gone shopping in a department store for shoes or clothes?.

do you just walk over to the rack or shelf and select what you want without trying anything on to see if it fits?.

no.. what good would that do?

King Solomon

Sab said:

Beautiful post, Terry. I think you are really on to something. This is a great explanation for why God acts in the way he is said to act.

Numbers 23: 19 - God is not human, that he should lie

So the Torah states that because God is specifically not human that he doesn't lie. If he is "evil blind" as you say, he literally would not have the capacity to lie which is an evil.

Soooo, Sab, you're actually comfortable with the idea of YHWH being evil-blind (in effect, turning a blind eye to the problem of evil)?

And that would be OK with you, even preferable to a God who lies?

36

Rescuing a God who is blind to Evil

by Terry in

have you ever gone shopping in a department store for shoes or clothes?.

do you just walk over to the rack or shelf and select what you want without trying anything on to see if it fits?.

no.. what good would that do?

King Solomon

Aside from regret being inconsistent with omniscience, it's also inconsistent with his infallibility, since he's not capable of changing his mind. Same applies to situations where he shows mercy: that's inconsistent with his "I cannot change his mind" statement (which occurs with alarming regularity, where Moses intervenes on behalf of Israelites).

Heres a logical dissection of why he cannot change his mind:

Once God expresses his Divine Will, it becomes law; acting counter to it is a sin.

Jesus expresses the idea that even thinking about sinning is a sin. Therefore, God cannot even contemplate changing His mind, or it would be a sin; God cannot sin.

Once God issues a decision, there is no mercy. However, mercy is a claimed trait for God.....

Conclusion: someone didn't think through implications when writing His traits.

24

When you see some beautiful creations, then they say that Jehovah is wonderful...

by Iamallcool in

jw
friends

have you noticed that the dubs have mentioned from time to time when you see some beautiful creations, then they say that jehovah is wonderful?

is there something wrong with their thinking?.

King Solomon

Outsmart said:

I have always loved that the excuse for humans is that "Adam sinned......and sin spread to all men and death through sin" blah blah. But.....how does that explain animal behavior? Why do baby Great Whites eat one another in the womb? (already mentioned) Why do parasites that can only destroy life even exist? If the answer is "Adam sinned"......how does one man's sin change what a parasite was created to do?

Don't be silly: those are only ANIMALS. You know: the life forms to be subjugated, dominated, killed, eaten, sacrificed, etc. It's not like they have souls, or feelings. Those animal rights activists are just over-thinking things, using their over-active imaginations to tell themselves they have feelings. ;)

36

Rescuing a God who is blind to Evil

by Terry in

have you ever gone shopping in a department store for shoes or clothes?.

do you just walk over to the rack or shelf and select what you want without trying anything on to see if it fits?.

no.. what good would that do?

King Solomon

Terry said:

Why the change of standard??

Same reason He couldn't punish A&E with death on "the very day they ate": who'd populate the Earth? The story would open a can of worms (more than it currently does). It reads to me more as a lesson on the importance of semantics, and the importance of paying attention to very minute details (fitting, for a culture that has spurred on the development of more lawyers than you can shake a stick at!)

If the death sentence was taken literally, God would have to start from scratch, gathering more dust from which to fashion Adam 2.0 (which WAS the idea of letting only 8 people survive in the Flood: that WAS Armageddon 1.0, and we see how well THAT one worked out, right?).

So in both, God's hand was forced, and since He didn't want to start over, He was forced to work with what He had....

Remember the story was serving as a moral allegory, much like you're not going to attend traffic school without it beginning with some gruesome traffic accident photos to grab your attention as to why the information to be presented is important. A&E was the story to grab one's attention)

Lot was a sub-population of humanity, so God could use a different moral standard and wipe them all out.

Point is, God shot his wad by killing so many in the Flood, and He learned a lesson in population genetics, bottlenecking, etc.

It's like a hunter who over-harvests the population: you run out of animals to hunt (or victims to blame/kill, in God's case), and you've only made it harder on yourself!

Besides, it's NOT like YHWH is omnipotent, or something, right? (Remember, God was more man-like, with warts and human limitations, in Genesis than later on. It wasn't until later, when the writers of Isaiah got carried away with the "With God, all things are possible" omni-everything you can think of stuff, that the tall tales kicked in full-force....).